Überarbeitung der Wortliste
Moderator: Moderatoren
Following this discussion on Google+, I've changed the hypercorrected *rîw "Kante, Saum" to *rîf (N. rhîf), and also tuiw to tui (tuiw). The latter is just as echui (echuiw), rui (ruiw) which are spelled echui(w), rui(w) by Tolkien, which still indicates an older form with -w and a later form without it.
I've just stumbled upon this entry in PE17 (pp. 173/174):
"fain, used as an adjective meaning 'dim, dimmed'...", yadda yadda, we've got that one in our list al right, however, a bit further it says: "As a noun it was used of vague shapes or fleeting glimpses, especially of 'apparitions' or figures seen in dreams'." What I'm wondering is, does this mean we should actually have three different entries
- fân = cloud
- fain (adj.) = dim, dimmed, filmy, fine-woven etc.
and
- fain (n.) = 'apparition', figure seen in dreams
?
"fain, used as an adjective meaning 'dim, dimmed'...", yadda yadda, we've got that one in our list al right, however, a bit further it says: "As a noun it was used of vague shapes or fleeting glimpses, especially of 'apparitions' or figures seen in dreams'." What I'm wondering is, does this mean we should actually have three different entries
- fân = cloud
- fain (adj.) = dim, dimmed, filmy, fine-woven etc.
and
- fain (n.) = 'apparition', figure seen in dreams
?
That seems to be the case, I've now translated the adjective as "dämmerig, halbdurchsichtig, feinmaschig" and the noun as "flüchtige Gestalt (insbes. im Traum), Gestalt (flüchtig, insbes. im Traum), Traumgestalt".
Another change: nœgid (PE17:46) was previously listed a singular diminutive, but it appears to be the plural of noged. Still, I find the list noged, nœgid or niben-nog ambiguous here, since there is no 'pl.' indication and the next word niben-nog is singular as well. So I think that the possibility that all three are singular variants cannot be excluded, and I've added a respective note.
Another change: nœgid (PE17:46) was previously listed a singular diminutive, but it appears to be the plural of noged. Still, I find the list noged, nœgid or niben-nog ambiguous here, since there is no 'pl.' indication and the next word niben-nog is singular as well. So I think that the possibility that all three are singular variants cannot be excluded, and I've added a respective note.
I have now ploughed through the corrections sent in by Lőrinczi Gábor, mentioned a while back in this thread.
New entries added to the wordlist are:
Belegast, bregedur, celeth, crumguru, cuen, Dadhrin, Danath, dân, elen, ell-, Emmerain, Gast, Gilith, Gilwen, golu, Gondolindren, Gondolindrim, gondrath, gorgoroth, gos, goth, Graurim, graw, grod, haen, hanu, im, lindedhel, lindel, loss, lothren, moth, naes, naw, neldor, noroth, nûd, paen, silith, ui-
I've marked them: You can see them all if you type in "neu" into the "info" box in the dynamical wordlist.
References were updated for the following already existing entries:
caras, eledh, eledhrim, ell, golas, gor, Gonnhirrim, dû, galadh, gwath, híril, iaw, lasbelin, lîn, orn
(iau's spelling was regularized to iaw)
Furthermore, I've corrected the translations of dû and split the references: It's either 'late evening, nightfall' ("später Abend, Nachteinbruch") or 'night, dimness' ("Nacht, Düsterkeit"), but not actually 'darkness' as it used to be translated.
Similarly, I've split the references for caras: It's 'fort, dwelling with bulwarks' ("Festung, befestigte Siedlung") or 'city (above ground)' ("Stadt (oberirdisch)") or 'moated fortress' ("Wasserburg").
Other corrections involve:
- gail: noun -> adjective
- helch: noun -> adjective
- iâr is actually changed by Tolkien to iûr (VT46:22)
Please tell me if something is wrong. In particular, I don't have physical copies of the Silmarillion and Letters and am unable to check the page references.
There are several things I'm not sure how to handle:
1. Does Celos 'freshet' (UT:426) exist only as a place-name or also as a separate noun? It looks to me that only its Quenya cognate kelusse is an ordinary noun.
2. Ioreth 'old woman' (RC:579): Same thing, is it just a personal name or also a common noun?
3. I'm not sure how to handle silef and silif from Etym, since these are hypothetical words reconstructed by Tolkien which did not exist in Noldorin. Do they belong into the dictionary?
Last thing:
In the dynamic wordlist, you can now find more detailed helpers on how to use placeholders and regular expressions to filter the list.
New entries added to the wordlist are:
Belegast, bregedur, celeth, crumguru, cuen, Dadhrin, Danath, dân, elen, ell-, Emmerain, Gast, Gilith, Gilwen, golu, Gondolindren, Gondolindrim, gondrath, gorgoroth, gos, goth, Graurim, graw, grod, haen, hanu, im, lindedhel, lindel, loss, lothren, moth, naes, naw, neldor, noroth, nûd, paen, silith, ui-
I've marked them: You can see them all if you type in "neu" into the "info" box in the dynamical wordlist.
References were updated for the following already existing entries:
caras, eledh, eledhrim, ell, golas, gor, Gonnhirrim, dû, galadh, gwath, híril, iaw, lasbelin, lîn, orn
(iau's spelling was regularized to iaw)
Furthermore, I've corrected the translations of dû and split the references: It's either 'late evening, nightfall' ("später Abend, Nachteinbruch") or 'night, dimness' ("Nacht, Düsterkeit"), but not actually 'darkness' as it used to be translated.
Similarly, I've split the references for caras: It's 'fort, dwelling with bulwarks' ("Festung, befestigte Siedlung") or 'city (above ground)' ("Stadt (oberirdisch)") or 'moated fortress' ("Wasserburg").
Other corrections involve:
- gail: noun -> adjective
- helch: noun -> adjective
- iâr is actually changed by Tolkien to iûr (VT46:22)
Please tell me if something is wrong. In particular, I don't have physical copies of the Silmarillion and Letters and am unable to check the page references.
There are several things I'm not sure how to handle:
1. Does Celos 'freshet' (UT:426) exist only as a place-name or also as a separate noun? It looks to me that only its Quenya cognate kelusse is an ordinary noun.
2. Ioreth 'old woman' (RC:579): Same thing, is it just a personal name or also a common noun?
3. I'm not sure how to handle silef and silif from Etym, since these are hypothetical words reconstructed by Tolkien which did not exist in Noldorin. Do they belong into the dictionary?
Last thing:
In the dynamic wordlist, you can now find more detailed helpers on how to use placeholders and regular expressions to filter the list.
-
Amroth Elenion
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Sun Sep 18 2011 14:37
I think there is a quite big error in the word list (or I am too stupid to get it right):
It says:
beistehen: vb eitha- (PE/17:148).
And Hiswelóke states:
eitha- S. [ˈɛjθɑ] v. 1. to prick with a sharp point, to stab ○ 2. by ext., to treat with scorn, insult ◇ WJ/365 ◈ eithad S. ger.
I think there is a big difference between insulting and being there for somebody. What do you think?
It says:
beistehen: vb eitha- (PE/17:148).
And Hiswelóke states:
eitha- S. [ˈɛjθɑ] v. 1. to prick with a sharp point, to stab ○ 2. by ext., to treat with scorn, insult ◇ WJ/365 ◈ eithad S. ger.
I think there is a big difference between insulting and being there for somebody. What do you think?
Both meanings are given to eitha- by Tolkien, but appear in different sources. Both are also given in the wordlist: "beleidigen, stechen, verletzen" and "erleichtern, beistehen". The latter is not in Hiswelóke because it was published later than its last update.
Tolkien had no problem with such conflicting glossing because the conceptions of his languages were never fixed, always in flux.
For practical purposes, possible solutions are: 1. Take just one meaning, ignore the other. 2. Use 'insult' with the accusative and 'help' with the dative.
Tolkien had no problem with such conflicting glossing because the conceptions of his languages were never fixed, always in flux.
For practical purposes, possible solutions are: 1. Take just one meaning, ignore the other. 2. Use 'insult' with the accusative and 'help' with the dative.
I've added the new words from PE22 to the wordlist:
an-, anu, arahadhu, arahadhwad, archaf, athab, athof, athon, boda-, caer, caw-, curu, dom, gurgof, hadhu, hadhwad-, inn, men-, natha-, nidh-, nídha-, nîdh, oer, sîr, Thoron-hîn, Thoronion, Thoryn, tîw
As before, you can get an overview of them by typing "neu" into the "Info" box of the dynamic list.
The ones who have received a gloss update are:
alfirin, athelas, boda-, car-, cathrae, cirith, im, raef, sî, tol-, vi, êl
Please let me know whether I've overlooked something or made a mistake.
So far I'm not sure how to deal with dha.. Also, the 'throne' words in PE/22:148 are a bit of a muddle, it's not clear to me what arthorof and tathorn are supposed to mean - the context suggests *'throne', while the independent attestation of torn as 'burial mound' suggests *'royal burial mound'.
an-, anu, arahadhu, arahadhwad, archaf, athab, athof, athon, boda-, caer, caw-, curu, dom, gurgof, hadhu, hadhwad-, inn, men-, natha-, nidh-, nídha-, nîdh, oer, sîr, Thoron-hîn, Thoronion, Thoryn, tîw
As before, you can get an overview of them by typing "neu" into the "Info" box of the dynamic list.
The ones who have received a gloss update are:
alfirin, athelas, boda-, car-, cathrae, cirith, im, raef, sî, tol-, vi, êl
Please let me know whether I've overlooked something or made a mistake.
So far I'm not sure how to deal with dha.. Also, the 'throne' words in PE/22:148 are a bit of a muddle, it's not clear to me what arthorof and tathorn are supposed to mean - the context suggests *'throne', while the independent attestation of torn as 'burial mound' suggests *'royal burial mound'.
Das sind ja sehr schöne neue Wörter 
"Eorlingas" wird u.a. als Thoron-hîn angegeben, was ich jetzt allerdings eher als "Kinder des Adlers" und nicht als "Söhne/Kinder Eorls" übersetzen würde... "Eorl" hat ja eher die Bedeutung "Fürst, Adeliger, Krieger.."
Ein Online-AE-Wörterbuch verweist allerdings unter eorl auf "vgl. idg. *er- (1), Sb., Adler". Hat die Sindarinform etwas damit zu tun, oder bedeutet thoron hier gar nicht "Adler"?
"Eorlingas" wird u.a. als Thoron-hîn angegeben, was ich jetzt allerdings eher als "Kinder des Adlers" und nicht als "Söhne/Kinder Eorls" übersetzen würde... "Eorl" hat ja eher die Bedeutung "Fürst, Adeliger, Krieger.."
Ein Online-AE-Wörterbuch verweist allerdings unter eorl auf "vgl. idg. *er- (1), Sb., Adler". Hat die Sindarinform etwas damit zu tun, oder bedeutet thoron hier gar nicht "Adler"?
Eorl ist der Ursprung des modernen E. earl, im Altnordischen jarl , bedeutet also "Fürst" und hat nichts mit "Adler" zu tun.
Im Rohirrischen (dem echten, nicht Altenglisch) gibt Tolkien den Namen als Þuron an, "Eorlingas" als Þorunahim, was in Sindarin adaptiert wurde als Thoron-hîn (Q. Soronildi). Die offensichtliche Verbindung zu "Adler" ist also einfach nur Volksetymologie. Þuron ist dabei aber möglicherweise (von Tolkien mit einem Fragezeichen versehen) ein Lehnwort aus dem elbischen TUR-.
Im Rohirrischen (dem echten, nicht Altenglisch) gibt Tolkien den Namen als Þuron an, "Eorlingas" als Þorunahim, was in Sindarin adaptiert wurde als Thoron-hîn (Q. Soronildi). Die offensichtliche Verbindung zu "Adler" ist also einfach nur Volksetymologie. Þuron ist dabei aber möglicherweise (von Tolkien mit einem Fragezeichen versehen) ein Lehnwort aus dem elbischen TUR-.