Laer Beren a Lúthien - in entwicklung

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Roman
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Beitrag von Roman » Sa Feb 28 2009 0:08

Another thing that was suggested: in The Gnomish Lexicon (i·Lam na·Ngoldathon "Goldogrin") there is this entry:
paptha- tremble, quiver
Is there really a need? The difference between 'shiver' and 'shudder' is minimal and won't necessarily be found in other languages. Besides, it's just a metaphor referring to the stars' twinkling, so one could just as well use tinna- 'glint'.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Sa Feb 28 2009 0:30

Aran hat geschrieben:Is there really a need?
for certain values of really, maybe ... :)
- but (re. gnomish) I was also just interested.
Aran hat geschrieben:The difference between 'shiver' and 'shudder' is minimal and won't necessarily be found in other languages.
I find the difference quite significant: I perceive shuddering as a rather vigorous movement as contrasted to shivering or trembling.
Aran hat geschrieben:Besides, it's just a metaphor referring to the stars' twinkling, so one could just as well use tinna- 'glint'.
Sure - that is why I used _miria-_ sparkle.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Sa Feb 28 2009 2:14

6th verse -

When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant thranduil
Sui glirilinn* a rhoss dannol
A nen udul o lhoss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestant aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úphrestol


She came again at (the) fleeing winter
Her song released the vigorous spring
Like lark and falling rain
And water which came from snow babbling
He saw springing of niphredil
At her feet, he healed then
He desired to dance with the lady
Singing upon (the) pasture untroubling.


aphadol - following / then cf. Pedin Edhellen 21.4.1
glirilinn* - lark - reconstructed cf Q. lirulin, for now at least ...
niphredil - a pale winter flower, snowdrop - I thought of the Silmarillion
from Ch. 10 - Of the Sindar hat geschrieben:and there in the forest of Neldoreth Lúthien was born, and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth.

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » Sa Feb 28 2009 8:49

Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:A nen udul o lhoss glavrol
The preposition would rather be o(d), 'of', 'coming from', than o(h), 'about', concerning'.
Na dail dîn, nestant aphadol
As nesta- is used intransitively you might consider a past tense ending -s or -st.

úphrestol > úbrestol ?

Besides, I am in doubt whether a compound like th(a)randuil, which is expressly referred to as "a name" (PE17:187), would be used in this context.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Sa Feb 28 2009 13:37

Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:A nen udul o lhoss glavrol
The preposition would rather be o(d), 'of', 'coming from', than o(h), 'about', concerning'.
Ah yes.

It could then be either _o loss_ (using b]o(d)[/b], 'of', 'coming from')
or, maybe just using the genitive: _e loss_ ...
Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Na dail dîn, nestant aphadol
As nesta- is used intransitively you might consider a past tense ending -s or -st.
Hey, this is interesting!
I would have thought that transitivity was like a fixed property of a verb but indeed, some verbs can be used in either way.
_nestas_ sounds better IMO here as well.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:úphrestol > úbrestol ?
Indeed, slipped my mind yesterday night.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:Besides, I am in doubt whether a compound like th(a)randuil, which is expressly referred to as "a name" (PE17:187), would be used in this context.
Would you say this is a different case as, say, names like _Meril_ or _Elanor_?

An alternative could be _Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil _ it'd be hard to squeeze 'sudden(ly)' (_bragol_) in there .. or maybe _heriad_ 'beginning' ... although I also feel that the 'suddenness' is also somewhat implied by 'releasing'.

Also, I noticed that _tuilinn_ 'swallow' comes from OS *tuilindo, *tuilelindo "spring-singer" (TUJ, LIN2) so using that attested word, even though it is factually another bird, would maybe be preferable ?


Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol
A nen udul o loss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol


Thanks again, Ailinel!

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » Sa Feb 28 2009 15:13

Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:It could then be either _o loss_ (using b]o(d)[/b], 'of', 'coming from')
or, maybe just using the genitive: _e loss_ ...
In my opinion, it would either be od loss (using o(d)) ) or ed loss (using ed), both with stop mutation.
The genitive does not seem quite appropriate, unless the word order were changed and the words that are supposed to be in the genitive were placed immediately after nen.
Would you say this is a different case as, say, names like _Meril_ or _Elanor_?
Well, elanor is the attested name of a flower and also used as a personal name; Meril is an attested personal name translated as "Rose".
Thranduil is an attested personal name meaning "vigorous spring".

I assume that nouns, originally denominating flowers, are very plausible (mostly female) personal names, as may be evidenced by names in many real languages.

I leave it to your (and anyone's) discretion whether Thranduil falls under the same category.
I am in doubt, as already stated, and I would not use it, nor would I use comparable compound names in ordinary speech, e. g. I would not say: " **sevin 'lorfindel", or the like.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Sa Feb 28 2009 16:47

Ailinel hat geschrieben:In my opinion, it would either be od loss (using o(d)) ) or ed loss (using ed), both with stop mutation.
I think I prefer _ed-_ here.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:I leave it to your (and anyone's) discretion whether Thranduil falls under the same category.
I am in doubt, as already stated, and I would not use it, nor would I use comparable compound names in ordinary speech, e. g. I would not say: " **sevin 'lorfindel", or the like.
Yes, I understand what you mean.

Udul he ad ne thrîw dregol
Linn dîn leithiant i ethuil
Sui tuilinn a rhoss dannol
A nen udul ed loss glavrol
Egenn tuiad niphredil
Na dail dîn, nestas aphadol
anírant lilthad na mrennil
Linnol am nadhras úbrestol


Thanks!

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Mär 01 2009 14:26

last three verses ...

Again she fled, but swift he came,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel
That in his arms lay glistening.

He dregas ad, dan ho nerant,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
Eneg edhellen dîn estant;
adhor ennas lû hen lastol.
Ne phost thent Beren, túliel
Na lûth ed lam dîn gen gwedhant
Si barthannen Tinúviel
Dorthas vi rinc dîn thiliol.


She fled again, but he ran,
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her elvish name;
she stopped there at that time, listening.
In that short moment Beren, having come
by the spell of his tongue she was bound
Doomed now was Tinúviel
(who) dwelled in his arms, glistering.




As Beren looked into her eyes
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering.
Tinuviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.

Beren tirant na chîn iell
Vi 'wath finnil dîn velui,
O elenath aglar menel
Egent ennas i míriol.
Tinúviel elvanui
Elleth alfirin edhelhael,
O hon ring finnil fuinui
A renc gelebrin thiliol. †


Beren gazed into the girl's eyes
In the sweet shadow of her hair,
From the starry host, the glory of the sky
He saw sparkling there.
Tinúviel elven-fair
Immortal maiden elven-wise
About him cast her shadowy hair
And silvery arms glistering.



Long was the way that fate them bore,
O'er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more,
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.

I dhoer manath únodui,
Trî annon dûr, angren thamas
Am ered gondeb, hithui
A thaur dhúatheb angoeol.
I aearon min hain dorthas,
Govanner hai na vedui,
Pelanner io anann ennas
Úníniel vi daur linnol.


Countless were the leagues of Fate,
Through dark door, iron hall,
Over stony mountains full of clouds,
And wood of nightshade filled with dread.
The Great sea between them lay,
They met again in the end,
They faded away there long ago,
In the forest, singing without tears.



† Tinúviel elvanui ... gelebrin thiliol translated by David Salo for the LOTR movies

I'll be off for a bit now - have to get some fresh air ;) so if I don't reply soon it's bc of that.
I am not entirely happy with everything yet, but it's best to take a bit of distance .. I can really get in hyperfocus. It helps getting things done, but it is a bit intense.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Mär 01 2009 20:19

Na dail dîn peliol, lilthas
I chîth gelebren hwiniol
Ailinel hat geschrieben:By the way, a pronoun "she" (indicating who is dancing) might possibly make the meaning less difficult to understand.
...
Na dail peliol, he lilthas
I chîth gelebren hwiniol

----

Someone remarked to me today that she thought that the "shivering" in

He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,

By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.


referred back to Beren rather than to the stars:

Bild

I am not certain. It could be either way I think... any ideas?

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » Mo Mär 02 2009 6:06

In any case, "shivering stars" is a rather frequent metaphor. A Google search results in 1160 hits (256 for "shuddering stars").

By the way, there is no comma before "shivering".

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Roman
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Beitrag von Roman » Mo Mär 02 2009 11:54

Compare also the formulation in 'The Lays of Beleriand':

He sought her wandering near and far
Where the leaves of one more year were strewn,
By winter moon and frosty star
With shaken light a-shivering.
(LB:109)

Also:

[...] Lo! black cloud-drifts
surged up like smoke from the sable North,
and the sheen was shrouded of the shivering moon
(LB:42)

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