Laer Beren a Lúthien - in entwicklung

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Feb 22 2009 14:04

danke Eilinel!
Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben: _eldorath_ ?
_eldhorath_ ?
Da dôr ja von NDOR- kommt, ist es höchstwahrscheinlich *eldorath
Right. I'll use that form.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:Ich weiß zwar nicht, ob der Kollektivplural hier sinnvoll ist.
Ich bin auch nicht ganz sicher davon. (sorry, have to switch to English)
The place indicated here - Elvenhome - which I understand refers to Doriath - is indeed a lot more specific and smaller in size as in _ennorath_ Middle-Earth.
Still, when I think of the word as 'the elven lands' it maybe could make sense.
I'll let it sink in a bit further.

Anyhow, these things need a couple of iterations before I am happy with them. There's lines in them, including the one you mention _Agamp geleg i vell_ that might need some work.
Ailinel hat geschrieben: Außerdem noch kurz ein paar Bemerkungen bzw. Fragen:

Barthannen sollte (zumindest laut englischem Text) Plural sein.
Ah yes, this particular participle does ... thanks.
As a side note - something that I have wondered about a number of times: since the participle functions as an adjective, is it thus subject to mutation? I could not find examples of this.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:dyl sollte als Objekt vermutlich leniert werden.
See, this is always a point of uncertainty to me: how far does one take lenition? In many cases it is very clear, but there are others where I am always in doubt .. and in those cases I usually follow my feeling for what sounds best.
Beispielsweise: in a chain like - the good bold man - would the lenition go on all the way, like _i venn veren vaer_ ?
Ailinel hat geschrieben:Agamp geleg i vell - Diesen Satz verstehe ich nicht ganz: "Leaped swift the dear (?)"
_vell_ = lenited _bell_ strong
I'm not happy with the _i_ in there. It is like a reference to the person doing the leaping. I'll think about it some more.
Maybe _ha_ there is better.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:ithildim - ithildin (?)
In the PE17 list that I have it says:
Lúthien Meliel's PE17 list hat geschrieben:ithildim - moon-star(-light) - (PE17:39)
Maybe there's a typo in there? I've never seen the word anywhere else.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:dregas - Du brauchst vermutlich die Vergangenheit.
This is curious. I usually use Hesperides to look up words, and that gives:
drega-* [drˈɛgɑ] v. to flee

so I assumed it to be an a-verb. I see now, however, that behind that it says:
Only the imperative drego is attested. Therefore, the verb may also be dreg- (inf. dregi)

and in PE also the i-verb form _dreg-_ is listed.

So the -s is the intransitive a-verb past form.

Is it being established as an i-verb in the past years (since Hesperides was last updated (end 2004)?
Ailinel hat geschrieben:[a thail - Vielleicht eher na ?
indeed. I mixed up the prefix _an_ and the preposition _na_

vielen dank!
- l


I lûth nestant i dail naegrol
Berthennin dhyl athreviad
Agamp geleg ha vell, bragol
Mabant ithildim thiliol
Trî 'aladhremmin eldorath
(He?) dregas fair na dail lilthol
Awarthant Beren reniad
Erui vi daur dhínen lastol


-- pending the _ithildim/n_ and _drega- / dreg-_ outcome ...

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Roman
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Beitrag von Roman » So Feb 22 2009 14:59

ithildim - moon-star(-light) - (PE17:39)
Maybe there's a typo in there? I've never seen the word anywhere else.
No typo, Tolkien wrote should be ithildim, apparently with changed phonology, see tim 'spark' (PE17:22), probably from tim(m)- < tinmē, where Noldorin had tinw < *tinmh- < tinmē (TIN-). The variant tîn, tin (PE17:39,66) is probably formed without an ending (or with an original vowel).
But since ithildin is written in LotR, there should be nothing wrong with using this form.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Feb 22 2009 16:33

I have - in Hesperides again:

ithildin* [iθˈil̡din] n. a silver-colored substance, which mirrors only starlight and moonlight ◇ LotR/II:IV ◇ ithil+tinu "moon-star"

ie. the material of which the lettering on the Gate of Moria were made

but that is surely something else as
ithildim - moon-star(-light) - (PE17:39)?

and since I wanted to translate something akin to 'moonbeams' - light - I think that that first meaning is not what I was looking for. Unless, of course, the meaning of _ithildin_ can be stretched enough. Hmm. :?

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Beitrag von Ailinel » So Feb 22 2009 16:51

Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:As a side note - something that I have wondered about a number of times: since the participle functions as an adjective, is it thus subject to mutation? I could not find examples of this.
Hm... Talath Dirnen, Fen Hollen come to my mind. The latter should "properly" read chollen, according to Tolkien's Index to LotR (RC:550), so lenition might possibly be preferred.
See, this is always a point of uncertainty to me: how far does one take lenition? In many cases it is very clear, but there are others where I am always in doubt .. and in those cases I usually follow my feeling for what sounds best.
Beispielsweise: in a chain like - the good bold man - would the lenition go on all the way, like _i venn veren vaer_ ?
Regarding adjectives that follow a noun, there is no hard rule, as far as I know.
It may be, however, that objects are lenited, even if they precede the verb, cf. Daur a Berhael [...] Egerio, where the names appear to be objects of eglerio.

Regarding *dreg-, I was following Thorsten's suggestion. I'm not aware of any reference to this verb in recent publications.

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Avorninnas
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Beitrag von Avorninnas » So Feb 22 2009 17:23

Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:and in PE also the i-verb form _dreg-_ is listed.
Really? Like Ailinel I am not aware of this reference. Could you please list it for us?
but that is surely something else as ithildim - moon-star(-light) - (PE17:39)?
I don´t think so. In PE17:39 (exactly when talking about the ornaments on the doors of Moria) Tolkien says: S. ithildin "moon-star(light)." (...) Should be ithildim.
And in his explanations concerning the poem of the falling leaves, he annotates, (...)S. tîn "spark, star" - seen in ithil-din "moon-star", the magic alloy starmoon (...) (PE17:66)
I think pretty well, that he is talking about the same kind of metal in both places.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Feb 22 2009 17:24

Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:As a side note - something that I have wondered about a number of times: since the participle functions as an adjective, is it thus subject to mutation? I could not find examples of this.
Hm... Talath Dirnen, Fen Hollen come to my mind. The latter should "properly" read chollen, according to Tolkien's Index to LotR (RC:550), so lenition might possibly be preferred.
Right. That is helpful. It seems that the matter is somewhat uncertain - not that that's a surprise in itself given all the contradicting resources. But that is somehow better than the uncertainty that's rooted in now knowing for myself if I missed it :)
Ailinel hat geschrieben:
See, this is always a point of uncertainty to me: how far does one take lenition? In many cases it is very clear, but there are others where I am always in doubt .. and in those cases I usually follow my feeling for what sounds best.
Beispielsweise: in a chain like - the good bold man - would the lenition go on all the way, like _i venn veren vaer_ ?
Regarding adjectives that follow a noun, there is no hard rule, as far as I know.
It may be, however, that objects are lenited, even if they precede the verb, cf. Daur a Berhael [...] Egerio, where the names appear to be objects of eglerio.
And apparently I hit a similar issue here.
I've thought about this in the past ... it seemed to me that how it has been tried to "reverse engineer" the grammar and other rules from the source texts does, despite it's success, have the drawback that it tries to impose rules on something that might not have been governed by explicit rules to start off with.
I remember having read that the phenomenon of mutations solely serves to "make the language flow more / more beautiful" which I found absolutely delightful. Who would take that extra effort, for the sake of beauty? It is one of the things that makes me love Sindarin.
It might imply though that such changes that are applied from a "sense of what sounds beautiful" can be hard to catch in hard rules.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:Regarding *dreg-, I was following Thorsten's suggestion. I'm not aware of any reference to this verb in recent publications.
I'll try the *dreg- out as well.

Thanks again!
-l

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » So Feb 22 2009 17:34

Avorninnas hat geschrieben:[ Like Ailinel I am not aware of this reference.
I guess she was referring to Pedin Edhellen.
Anyway, it would be advisable to use the abbreviation PE for Parma Eldalamberon only.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Feb 22 2009 17:40

Avorninnas hat geschrieben:
Lúthien Meliel hat geschrieben:and in PE also the i-verb form _dreg-_ is listed.
Really? Like Ailinel I am not aware of this reference. Could you please list it for us?
Sure, np

Bild


I just checked the Hisweloke online version, which is from May 2008...
http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/o ... sd-en.html

and there it says:

*drega- S. [drˈɛgɑ] v. to flee ◈ Only the imperative drego is attested. Therefore, the verb may also be dreg- (inf. dregi) ◈ drego S. v. imp.

I'll ask on Elfling to see what they think of it ...

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » So Feb 22 2009 17:42

Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Avorninnas hat geschrieben:[ Like Ailinel I am not aware of this reference.
I guess she was referring to Pedin Edhellen.
Anyway, it would be advisable to use the abbreviation PE for Parma Eldalamberon only.
ahhh I see. Right. I'm sorry about that.

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Avorninnas
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Beitrag von Avorninnas » So Feb 22 2009 17:46

I see - Lúhtien, please - PE means Parma Eldalamberon, not "Pedin Edhellen". Just as Ailniel says.
Thorsten decided to use the verb as I-verb, but this does not mean, that it is automatically an attested form. We have no such form until now. Of course you are free to use it, because the attested material allows it. But we can´t be sure.

Edit: You were both faster than me. :D

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Mo Feb 23 2009 20:11

Pedin Edhellen # 15.2.1 hat geschrieben:In a longer list of properties, it is possible that only the fir st adjective has to be lenited and that lenition is at best optional for the rest. Usually a (and) separates at least part of the list and causes its own set of mutations, quite different from the grammatical lenition.

benn veren, bell a maer (a bold, strong and good man)
magor dhînen a thirweg (a silent and watchful warrior)
I knew I had seen it somewhere :)

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Di Feb 24 2009 1:18

became superfluous .. put 4th verse in next post.
Zuletzt geändert von Lúthien Meliel am Fr Feb 27 2009 2:24, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Fr Feb 27 2009 2:23

and the 5th one ... (reposting first (Sindarin only) verses to avoid having to switch pages)

I nimwaloth i bain a phant
I laiss in end calen nadhras
Calad egennir mi i lant
E geil mi dhúath thiliol
Tinúviel i lilthas ias
Na lind o simp dholen a brand
A vi finnil dîn glîn ennas
A vi chammad dîn míriol

Nu laiss Beren erui padas
Ab aegais ring dad túliel
Ennas i elduin sirias
Nûr a erui reniol
Min laiss en-gwaloth tíriel
Glinthant mellys ’lassui ennas
Na choll a rainc dîn derthiel
Sui dae finnil dîn aphadol

I lûth nestant i dail naegrol
Berthennin dhyl athreviad
Agamp geleg ha vell, bragol
Mabant ithildim thiliol
Trî 'aladhremmin eldorath
He dregas fair na dail lilthol
Awarthant Beren reniad
Erui vi daur dhínen lastol



He heard there oft the flying sound
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound
Whispering fell the beachen leaves
In (the) wintry woodland wavering.

Sui laiss dulus i thail ellint
Lastant ennas lhyss reviol
A vi imlaid thyrin i lind
Ennas eithelui tuiol
Si nimwaloth i tharn, thinnol
a thloss ath thloss vi i chelch thind
laiss e-mrethil vi daur dharthol
hain sui gwilwileth sí dannol


Like poplar-leaves the (exceedingly) swift feet
He heard there flying <whispering>
And in hidden valleys the tunes
there like a well springing up
now the white-flowering (lay) withered, fading
and whisper after whisper in the grey cold
the beechen leaves in the waiting wood
<they> like butterflies here were falling.



He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hill-top high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn
A mist of silver quivering.

Ún chir hen revias palan
Erin laiss caedennin ennas
Nu 'ilgalad a nui gúran
Vi menel edhring míriol
Nu ithildim choll dîn tinnas
Sui caw amon, haeron a brann
Na dail dîn peliol, lilthas
I hîth gelebren hwiniol


(He) did not find her, he wandered far
On the fallen leaves there
Below starlight and under the crescent moon
Sparkling in the freezing heaven
Her mantle glinted below moonlight
Like (the) top of a hill, far and high
Spreading at her feet, while she danced
(was) A twirling silver mist


================

1st verse
I found some parts in the first verse where I forgot mutation:
bain a pant -> bain a phant (special case mutation)
En geil -> E geil (mixed mutation)

4th verse
I used poplar bc there is no word for Linden - cannot find it in any Quenya source, either. Poplar looks a bit like a linden I thought.
sui gwilwileth I could not find "wavering" or any similar word - Eryniel came up with this visual metaphor "like butterflies (fell the leaves)"

5th verse
Ún chir archaic mode (Pedin Edhellen 7.2.3)
gúran Noldorin "Crescent moon" .. I needed a word ending on -an here ...
míriol I searched for long for something resembling "shivering". gir- "shuddering" does not feel right to me .. I can't see stars "shuddering", no matter how cold it is ... So I fell back on "sparkling" which also describes, to a degree, what stars on a cold night do ...
peliol, lilthas cf.Pedin Edhellen 7.2.3: using participle to describe simultaneous action "Spreading ..., while she danced "

Ailinel
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Beitrag von Ailinel » Fr Feb 27 2009 16:18

Nu ithildim choll dîn tinnas

coll should remain without (nasl ?) mutation (apparently being the subject of the sentence).
Na dail dîn peliol, lilthas
I hîth gelebren hwiniol

Spreading at her feet, while she danced
(was) A twirling silver mist
I hîth > i chîth ?

By the way, a pronoun "she" (indicating who is dancing) might possibly make the meaning less difficult to understand.
míriol I searched for long for something resembling "shivering". gir- "shuddering" does not feel right to me .. I can't see stars "shuddering", no matter how cold it is ... So I fell back on "sparkling" which also describes, to a degree, what stars on a cold night do ...
That is of course a matter of taste. Personally, I consider "shuddering stars" to be a quite felicitous methaphor. In terms of astrophysics, they do neither "shiver" nor "shudder" (as far as I know).

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Lúthien Meliel
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Beitrag von Lúthien Meliel » Fr Feb 27 2009 18:50

Schönen Dank, Ailinel ..
Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Nu ithildim choll dîn tinnas

coll should remain without (nasl ?) mutation (apparently being the subject of the sentence).

Indeed. A careless copy/paste from the second verse ...
Ailinel hat geschrieben:
Na dail dîn peliol, lilthas
I hîth gelebren hwiniol

Spreading at her feet, while she danced
(was) A twirling silver mist
I hîth > i chîth ?

Yes, I agree.
Ailinel hat geschrieben:By the way, a pronoun "she" (indicating who is dancing) might possibly make the meaning less difficult to understand.

Good idea. I'll try to rework that.

Ailinel hat geschrieben:That is of course a matter of taste. Personally, I consider "shuddering stars" to be a quite felicitous methaphor. In terms of astrophysics, they do neither "shiver" nor "shudder" (as far as I know).
Unless it concerns a RR Lyrae star ...

Someone remarked to me today that she thought that the "shivering" referred back to Beren rather than to the stars. Not that it'd change the translation in itself, but it would render "shuddering" more realistic :)

Another thing that was suggested: in The Gnomish Lexicon (i·Lam na·Ngoldathon "Goldogrin") there is this entry:
paptha- tremble, quiver

which could maybe be reconstructed into a Sindarin verb?

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