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Gûr annorn

Posted: Sat Jan 19 2008 13:10
by Eirien
So was kommt von einer Überdosis Anne Clark:

Plado 'ûr annorn

Cano Anor en-aur
I galad en-amar
Pelio i arad 'laur
Buin falvath bain
Buin emyn bain

Edro rúthui paur
Plado 'ûr annorn
Echuitho¹ geven lorn²
'ynd bain
Duiw e-thar bain

I faer en amar
Nartho arad 'wain
Cano Anor en-aur
Echuir 'orn
Plado 'ûr annorn

I faer en amar
Nartho arad 'wain
Echuir 'orn
Aphado eden rein


¹ *echuitha- kausatives "awake"
² *lorn von Q. lorna = "asleep"

Re: Gûr annorn

Posted: Sat Jan 19 2008 17:53
by Tyrhael
Eirien wrote:Echuitho¹ geven lorn² [...] ² *lorn von Q. lorna = "asleep"
Avast! There be English here ... :shock:
Anyway, I have always used *lorn in Sindarin shamelessly because under LOS, VT45:29 has deleted N. cognates to Qe. _lóre_ and _lorna_ being _lhûr_ and _lhorn_, which I would 'update' to *lûr and *lorn. The latter was perhaps deleted because of a clash with _lhorn_ from LUR (ibid.). There is evidence from VII:423 that the derivative (_lhorn_>) _lorn_ "haven" from LUR survived until at least Feb. 9, 1942, but it seems that the names into which it was incorporated (Forlorn and Harlorn) had that element later replaced with _lond_. Therefore, one might surmise that _lorn_ had lost its association with LUR and could safely be used as a derivative from LOS again.

Re: Gûr annorn

Posted: Sun Jan 20 2008 14:27
by Eirien
Tyrhael wrote: Avast! There be English here ...
Ah was?! Pirates too! Image

So, let them step forward and share their views with us! As you did, Tyrhael - thanks a lot for your comments on *lorn. Unless the other experts disagree, I will feel free to carry on using it in the sense of 'sleeping, asleep'.

Posted: Sun Jan 20 2008 16:44
by Roman
Therefore, one might surmise that _lorn_ had lost its association with LUR and could safely be used as a derivative from LOS again.
Lorn has to be from LOR, not LOS, since s > r is only possible in Quenya. UT:396 actually brings up olo-s, not connected to 'sleep' anymore, but PE17:170 cites OLOR 'vision' without any derivatives. So it seems that this is one of the cases where Tolkien couldn't decide on the consonant.
*echuitha- kausatives "awake"
Mit -tha? Das ist, so weit ich weiß nur in Goldogrin und frühem Noldorin bekannt. Stattdessen vielleicht besser *echuid-, wie limmid-, nimmid-. Sehr oft entsteht ja -itha < -kta durch Vokalisierung, aber hier ist der Stamm KUY oder KOY.

Posted: Sun Jan 20 2008 17:22
by Lothenon
Hui, Anne Clark, eine der schönsten musikalischen Weltschmerz-Umsetzungen *'Our Darkness' rauskramen geh* ;)

Echuir 'orn verstehe ich allerdings nicht ganz, 'impetuous awakening'? Wäre 'a brandnew start' nicht durch echuir eden originalgetreuer umgesetzt? Oder vertue ich mich gerade in der Zeile?

Posted: Sun Jan 20 2008 18:27
by Tyrhael
Aran wrote:Lorn has to be from LOR, not LOS, since s > r is only possible in Quenya. UT:396 actually brings up olo-s, not connected to 'sleep' anymore, but PE17:170 cites OLOR 'vision' without any derivatives. So it seems that this is one of the cases where Tolkien couldn't decide on the consonant.
Indeed, I realized that as well, and wondered whether I should cite the root as LOS/R, but figured one could read about the indecision on the consonant in VT45:28-9. Another reason was that I couldn't figure out what a primitive form *losnā would yield in Sindarin (though it was apparent the s > z > Exilic r as in Quenya wouldn't occur. I finally just looked up §4.70 in Gateway to Sindarin (it does have its uses) and surmised that it might produce *losnā > *losna > *lonna > *lonn, mirroring primitive *besnō > Qe. venno and N. benn. :?

Another "case where Tolkien couldn't decide on the consonant" might be (if I remember correctly) the word for "head" in Q. from KAS — i.e. whether it was cás (car-) or cár (cas-).

Posted: Mon Jan 21 2008 16:22
by Eirien
@Aran: Ah. OK. Danke.

@Loth: Ja, man darf's natürlich nicht übertreiben, aber zur Untermalung eines derart verregneten Wochenende passte das schon ganz gut.
>echuir eden
wäre natürlich eine wortgetreuere Übersetzung, passte aber nicht ins Reimschema, das ich haben wollte. Das Ganze war nur ein Schnellschuss, ohne künstlerisches Gewicht.
>*'Our Darkness' rauskramen geh*
Ui, das wird schon länger dauern. Und werden.

Posted: Mon Jan 21 2008 21:44
by Lothenon
Missverständnis! Ich wollte es nur hören, nicht übersetzen! Hm, obwohl... :)

Nein nein, "mechanical place", "unjustified crimes" und vor allem auch die schöne "idealistic assurance" ist wohl einfach ein bisschen viel des Guten ;9

Posted: Tue Jan 22 2008 14:48
by Eirien
Och, da könnte man zur Not sad *'odeb, úgerth úfael und amdir *élcheneb nehmen...

Es gibt aber in der Tat übersetzungs-freundlichere Texte, zB:

Minno

Le îdh a sîdh vilui
Le iest ah i luithiad en-iest
Le seidion, pant en-glass a naeg,
Chên ah 'ûr nîn sui bar lîn
Minno ah adel le holo in ennyn dîn.

Bodo naergon e gûr nîn!
No i 'ûr nîn pant e-glass lîn
Erui i fael lîn síla buin esgal e-hîn nîn
Ae, han pathro dîn!